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Who is Jesus? by Mind Map: Who is Jesus?
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Who is Jesus?

3. Discussion

1. Nabeel Qureshi

1. [In response to previous comments made by the Mufti] The Mufti Agrees that if we were to call a normal human God, that would be extremely offensive to God. Nabeel explains to the Mufti that Christians don't believe God was created when Jesus was born. Clarifies that Christians believe that God entered into creation.

2. I believe that Muslims have to agree that it is possible for God to enter into the world. If we say otherwise we are saying that God is not all-powerful. Therefore, the question is not if God 'can' enter the world, it's "DID" God enter the world?

2. Mufti Sulaiman

1. Giving an example: President Obama is in the White House. He doesn't need to come out of the White House and present himself, he doesn't have to do that. Likewise, God is superior on his throne, and does not need to enter into creation

3. Nabeel Qureshi

1. You would agree then that he could if you wanted to [enter into creation]? So the disagreement is not can he enter creation, it's did he? You're saying he doesn't have to do according to Islamic theology. According to Christian theology he doesn't have to either, but he did.

2. The question then becomes, if God entered into creation and we call him just a man and not God, to me that is a dishonour [referring to the mufti's previous comments about how it is not dishonouring Jesus to call him just a man]. I think that calling Jesus just a man IS dishonourable IF he's God. Would you agree?

4. Mufti Sulaiman

1. If he was God, of course. That would be dishonourable. But since he's not God...

2. Why would God want to enter a human? Do his powers not work up there? Does he have to come in a human body? And if he came in a human body, why does he have to be killed? A king who is superior, would like to live forever. Nobody wants to die. So if Jesus was God, why did he want to die?

5. Nabeel Qureshi

1. Good question. Why would God enter creation? We are on similar ground that God can enter creation. The difference is, would he or would he not? In the Islamic view he can do everything he wants from his throne (in heaven), 1. The Christian view is this (I think this is more philosophically consistent): If God is not infinitely just, can he be God? If the definition of God is one who is infinite in his qualities (which Muslims would agree with), must he be infinitely just? - Yes. If I can think of a judge who forgives people their crimes because they ask him to I can say he is merciful, but not infinitely just. An infinitely just judge would say that everyone has to pay for their crimes. So in order for God to be infinitely just he must punish every single sin., 1. God is also infinitely merciful.He forgives every single sin insofar as he gives us all the ability to be forgiven of our sins. This does seem contradictory at first. How can he forgive us of our sins, but also be demanding payment for all sins? It's simple, if he takes our sins upon himself. Every single sin is paid for, but we are all given infinite mercy. The Islamic version of God does not make God infinitely just. Some people are forgiven of their sins, and no one has to pay for them. If God forgives some people but not others he is also not infinitely merciful. In order for God to be infinitely just and infinitely merciful,he must require payment for every sin, and he takes the payment upon himself. How does he do that? He becomes a man and becomes the propitiation for our sins., 1. It's as if a person to whom you owe a debt says "I forgive you that debt by paying it out of my own account". That is just, that is merciful, and that's why he came to this world.

6. Mufti Sulaiman

1. God is merciful. That is the law. If you do good you get good. If you do bad, you get bad. This is the law of human nature also. If someone is good to you, you will be good to them. if someone is bad to you, be bad to them. You don't ignore it. If someone does something good, it is against God's will that he be bad to them. Whoever does good they will deserve good., 1. Saying that God took our sins upon himself, I don't think that's justice. If someone commits a crime and he is not brought to justice, that means he can do whatever he wants, and that is against creation. Who would then glorify God, everyone would be a criminal because they know Jesus took it on himself. That's why God gives a reward to whoever does good,and he will punish (if he wants) those who do wrong. Everyone who does wrong must be accountable themselves, else this whole universe will be in a mess, be corrupted. God can forgive you, he is merciful, but this idea of taking your sins upon himself is going to corrupt this whole system.

7. Nabeel Qureshi

1. He brings up an excellent point, Paul responds to this in the book of Romans. He says "should we continue on sinning because we have the grace that God has given us?". In other words can we go on sinning as much as we want so that grace may abound? His response is "May it never be" - we should never ever do that, why?, 1. It's simple. John the Baptist came before Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance. You must repent before God. But what does repent mean? Does it mean that you can just say "sorry God", and keep on sinning? Repentance is saying sorry to God but then actively trying to stop whatever it is that you were doing. We cannot accept the blood of Jesus Christ unless we repent truly. Unless we repent truly you are not saved according to the new Testament. No Christian believes that you can just continue sinning., 1. The other question asked was "if God pays for our sins for us, is that still justice?" Let's suppose we go to our fathers store, and we steal from him repeatedly until one day we're caught. Father says "son, you have stolen from me repeatedly, you need to pay back your debts". And the son says "I can't pay you back, I have no money". The father says "okay. Are you sorry that you have done this?". The son says "yes". Father says "Will you try your best not to do it again?". "Yes" says the son. The father says "then I will pay your debts for you". The accounts are being balanced, the debts are being paid, but it's the father who pays for them out of his own account. In the same way it's just when we allow God to take our sins upon himself, because it is him against who we have sinned.

8. Mufti Sulaiman

1. Not every father would take that responsibility. May be one out of 1000 (in this country). In this country you pay for what you do. I don't think it's justice for God to take it. The system is going to get corrupted. Okay, you say he has to repent, suppose he does not. When you make a statement that God has taken all humans sins, what does that mean? It means that he took the responsibility, so that's it, do whatever you want., 1. You are making a statement in the new Testament that is against a statement you made in the beginning (old Testament). First you say he has taken the responsibility, then you say no, he has to repent. If he does not repent, what, he's going to be punished? If you say he's going to be punished, that means your first statement was wrong, it can't be true. Either, he took that responsibility AND do whatever you want, OR, If you don't repent you're going to be punished. This would mean your first statement was wrong, so either one of them has to be true., 1. Every Muslim believes that if you do good you get good. If you do bad, God could punish you. If you do wrong there are two categories: 1) Between him and God (not praying, drinking etc). 2) between him and other people. In this case, God is not going to forgive you for that unless that other person forgives you. So God forgives, but if you sinned against another person, God is not going to forgive you for that: you have to pay for it, or he [the other person] forgives you.

9. Nabeel Qureshi

1. There are explicit commands in the Bible that say that if you have sinned against another person that you are supposed to go to them and seek forgiveness from them. If you are at the altar making an offering to God having not done this, leave your gift at the altar, first make amends with your brother. Matthew chapter 18 discusses how to reconcile between brothers., 1. But how do we reconcile between us and God? It's simple, we accept the payment for our sins. Is it just? Yes, if we have sinned against God, he is allowed to pay for our sins. But if no payment is made, and the sins are left dangling (in limbo, forever), that is not just because God did not punish or seek repayment for those sins., 1. Similarly, if he is merciful to some people, but leaves others without mercy, then he is not infinitely merciful. If I can imagine a friend who is more merciful than God then God cannot be infinitely merciful. If I can imagine a judge who demands that everyone pays for what they have done and God does not do that, then God cannot be infinitely just. In the Christian theory, we have reconciliation between these two things. God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful, and we can be with him forever because the one against who we have sinned has paid for our sins for us - praise God for this grace that he has given us., 1. In the old Testament it says exactly how this would happen: " surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed." That Jesus would pay for our sins is something that we were told in the old Testament, that God would enter into this world is something we were told in the old Testament, and I want to end by saying this: Mufti Sulaiman brought up an excellent point - not every father would do this for their children, maybe one in 1000 - but our God is also infinitely loving and we cannot imagine anyone more loving than him. He would be more than willing to throw off his robes and delve into filth and disgustingness in order to save us from dying. And that is exactly what God did. He loves us that much. He is not a God who would sit on his throne and prefer his Majesty to his children.

10. Mufti Sulaiman

1. If a person is not afraid of the law, and being held responsible, he is never going to be on the safe side, its logic. We are afraid of the law, that's why we don't commit any crime. If there is no law, look at other countries, why those countries so corrupted? There is a law, but no enforcement. When there is no enforcement we don't have peace. So when we say a person himself won't have to do pay for his crimes, he won't be scared, and he will keep on committing crimes. So this mentality of God paying for all the sins is not going to bring us peace in the world. The world is going to be corrupted. It is a fact. If we want peace, we must admit that we have to be responsible for our own crimes., 1. If God forgives it, doesn't forgive it… He is most merciful, and he's just to every person. But this does not mean that he will punish someone and leave someone according to his will. Like I mentioned, if he punishes someone that is his justice because he committed that crime, and if he forgives him that because of his mercy. If he does not forgive someone, that doesn't mean he is not just. He is just, that's his justification, that he be punished., 1. So these are two points we should keep in mind: 1) if we don't admit that we are going to be accountable for our sins, there will be corruption. 2) the crimes we commit we have to pay for it, and if God forgives us, that's upon him.

4. Audience Questions

1. For Nabeel

Q1: If Jesus is God, then what is 1. his purpose?, 1. This is a question we've just answered. His purpose in becoming incarnate is to be in a position where he can take our sins upon himself. So he entered into this world in order to actually be the sacrifice, 1. If you follow the bloodline starting from Genesis all the way through the NewTestament you see that every time there sin payment has to be made through sacrifice. Sometimes it's just propitiation for a time. Always we are being told to wait for the lamb that God would send, starting from Abraham when he's taking his son up the mountain to offer him as a sacrifice as God commanded. The son asks "where is the sacrifice?". Abraham responds saying "God himself will provide the Lamb", and he does, providing a ram, but this is not the unblemished lamb we were told would be the propitiation for our sins., 1. Throughout the old Testament the Jews are sacrificing animals as a sin offering before God, acknowledging that they are sinful and are sacrificing the lamb before God as he has requested, but they knew it was only for a time, and they would have to do it again and again and again. It wasn't until that perfect lamb would come and would make atonement for all time. And when he did come he was identified by him who was going to come before him - by John the Baptist. He says "this is the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world". Jesus says this himself in Matthew 20:28 "my blood sacrificed for the forgiveness for many". Mark 10:45 says the same thing, making it abundantly clear, Jesus's purpose is to take our sins upon himself.

2. Q2: Is Jesus creator or creation?, 1. According to John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him nothing has been made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." Let's stop and think. Here in the beginning was the 'word'. And this word was with God, and the Word was God. What's he saying? Is he saying that this word was created? No, he was in the beginning with God. And everything that has ever been created was created through him. So according to the new Testament, Jesus is the creator. He is not created. When he becomes incarnate into this world, he takes on flesh. He's not being made for the first time., 1. Muslims believe that when we leave this world our soul will continue to exist, just without this flesh that we have on right now. In the same way God's soul existed before he was born into this world and it took on flesh. In the same way that when we die our soul will go on forever (in heaven or hell), gods soul before he came into this world had no beginning.

3. Q3: Why do you think Jesus shed his blood? Is this not killing himself?, 1. Jesus certainly knew what he was doing when he went to die on the cross. When I was a Muslim I never believed he said these things, but he said it clearly. Chapter 16 verse 21: from that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised. It says it again in chapter 17 verse 22: as they were gathering in Galilee Jesus said to them "the son of man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day", and they were greatly distressed. A third time in Matthew 20:17 - as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the 12 disciples aside, and on the way he said to them "see, we are going to Jerusalem. The son of man will be handed over to the chief priests and scribes, and he will be sentenced to death and delivered over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged, and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day"., 1. So was Jesus willing to die? Yes! He goes back to Jerusalem specifically for that purpose. Each time he says he's going to die, he says that he's going to be raised from the dead. He's going to show the world that he is sent by God, because he's going to rise from the dead., 1. These claims that he made about being God, how do we know these are true? A bunch of people throughout time have claimed to be God and we have said they're crazy, but Jesus says it, and he confirms it by the Resurrection. He confirms it by raising himself from the dead. The resurrection not only gives us proof that he was who he said he was, it also shows but there is hope in the afterlife. We have confirmation that in the next life we will be raised and be with God forever. It also shows that the most terrible, ugly, gruesome thing in the world, God can turn this into something beautiful., 1. If God can do that with his own death, can he not do this with our souls? When we turn to him, having sinned, having been horrible people, having rejected him, lied, cheated, stolen, committed adultery, whatever it is we have done, and we turn to God and say "do with us what you can", he transforms us into a likeness of him, that's the power of God and that's what the resurrection has shown us

2. For Mufti Sulaiman

1. Q1: According to the Koran, what happened to Jesus on the cross?, 1. The Koran is very open. The belief that the Muslim has is that he was not hanged (put on the cross). He was saved before being put on the cross. If he was not on the cross, there is no question about what happened after that. Before he was crucified God lifted him up to the sky.

2. Q2: In Sahih Bukhari, Umar said that Muhammad called Ubay 'the best of all reciters', yet we do not include some of his recitations in our Koran that we presently have. How do you explain this hadith?, 1. Mufti asks for the exact quotation, 1. Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said that Ubay was the best of us in recitation yet we leave some of what he recites. Ubay says 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's apostle and I will not leave it for anything whatever. Bukhari volume 6, number 527, 2. The hadith says 'Ubay iqrah una'. - Ubay is the most knowledgeable person reading the Koran ( it says iqrah - read). Iy then says 'lahan'. What does lahan mean? - Arabs had different tunes [accent?], like New Yorkers, Californians, Alaskans.. So the Arabs had different styles. There is a hadith that says the Koran was revealed in the seventh style of the Arabic language. What Uthman did, he cancelled all other six styles of Arabic, and kept one, and it was the Quraysh that he kept. So the meaning of the Koran is the same, it is the tune [accent] that was different. What the hadith here is saying is that he has never heard the tune.

3. Q3. What are the marks of a true prophet, the marks of a false one, and how do you spot these marks?, 1. Since we don't have prophets these days we must rely on books or logic. Number one: a true prophet comes from a top honourable family. No prophet ever comes from a low category, like, from the streets.Those who come from a top family, they have good qualities (mostly)., 2. Number two: No one can claim that they are involved in any crime. No profit would ever commit a crime.Though one could make a case against a prophet such as "you told a lie", you dishonoured someone, you stole, you used to drink.

5. Final comments

1.Nabeel Qureshi

1. On the Mufti's previous answers regarding the Koran, 1. Would like to address what was just stated in answer to the question on Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, book 61, number 527 where Ubay Ibn Ka'b, who Muhammed mentions is one of the top four teachers of the Koran, and the best reciter of the Koran, says "Ubay was the best of us in recitation yet we leave some of what he recites. Ubay says "I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's apostle and will not leave it for anything whatever.", 1. Notice what's being said here. It's not being said "we read it differently than he does" which is what mufti Sulaiman is saying. No, it's saying "we leave some of what he says. This is not just recorded in Bukhari. It's actually been recorded in many books. [unintelligible] has recorded it, Bey Haki has recorded it. Zakashi has recorded it. It all records exactly what is going on here. Here is what it says: Ubay Ibn Ka'b said to me "how many verses did you count in surat Al Alzab." 72 or 73 I answered. He said "yet, it used to be equal to Surat Al-Bakarah and we used to read in it the verse of stoning. Surat Al Bakarah is the longest chapter in the Koran - over 200 verses - not 72 or 73. He is saying that hundreds of verses have been lost., 1. This is not the only time where this is being said. Let's look at Sahih Al Muslim: Abu Musa Al Ashari sent for the reciters of Basrah. They came to him and they were 300 in number, and they recited the Koran. And he said "you are the best among the inhabitants of Basrah for you are the reciters among them. But make sure that your hearts are not hardened - we used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to Surat Barat. I have however forgotten it, with the exception of this: If there were two valleys full of riches for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." So Sahih Bukhari records that verses have been lost. Sahih Al Muslim says long parts of the Koran have been lost, [didmovi?] also says similar things. This is what I was referring to with Abdullah Ibn Massoud: Abdullah Ibn Massoud disliked Zaid bin Thabit copying the Musraf. And he said "oh Muslim people - avoid copying the Musrah of Zaid Bin Thabit - by Allah when I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man. Oh people of Al Iraq keep the Musraf with you and conceal them, for Allah says that whoever has concealed something, he shall come with whatever he has concealed on the day of judgement." - So he saying don't read this Koran, don't even copy this Koran, don't have anything to do with this, conceal the ones [you have], don't give them back to him so he can burn it. That's what the top teacher of the Koran is saying according to [unintelligible], 1. Ibn Imajah says large sections of the Koran are missing. Aisha says it in Ibn Imajah. So Sahih Sitah, the most recorded and the most trustworthy collection of Ahadith say repeatedly that large sections of the Koran are missing, and nowhere do you find anywhere the statement that they are not missing, that the Koran is perfectly preserved. Let me read for you some things that are said about the Koran: Ibn Omar, the son of the Khalifa Omar says: Let no one say that he has acquired the entire Koran for how does he know what it all is? Much of the Koran has been lost., 1. Ibn Abi Dawoud in Khatab Masahif page 23 says: "Many passages of the Koran that was sent down that day have been lost at the battle of Ummamah. They were not known by those who survived. Nor were they known by anyone who had written them down. Nor were they found with one person after them." There is no question, if we look at the sources that the Koran has not been perfectly preserved, 1. How is this relevant to the topic? Because if we are going to look at a source about Jesus, and we are going to refer to it in deference to everything that's written early on instead of looking at all the Gospels, at all the early Christian manuscripts, Instead of looking at all the things that the early Christians, Jews, and Gentiles said about Jesus but instead refer to an Islamic version of Jesus we'd better have a really really really good reason. - And we don't.

2. What we do know about Jesus is what he himself says, we don't have to turn to the Koran. The evidence that we have is overwhelming. That he does say he is here to die for our sins. He says that he is the son of man who will be given glory at the end of times. He says he is the divine I AM who demands the allegiance of people from the old Testament, to the new Testament., 1. He says he is the creator, that he deserves the same glory that God deserves. This is the true Jesus. If I'm going to see what Jesus said about himself, I'm going to refer to the earliest books, and when we turn there and see what Jesus actually is like, we see that he is God incarnate, come to this world to pay for our sins. Praise God that he loves us so much that he is willing to leave his majestic throne of glory and enter into this disgusting world of sin for our sake.

2. Sulaiman Hashim

1. Of the verses that Dr Qureshi read, there is a verse in chapter 2 - the Koran itself explains that it was not revealed in one session. Over 23 years, some verses were revealed and some cancelled. So, if someone says that this book is not the book of God that was revealed to Muhammad it is not being just - because, suppose you have some statements - you know I asked for the Arabic texts of that book, there is a reason for it., 1. When you translate something to a different language sometimes the meaning changes. The word 'lahan' is a tune, and Arabs they have different tunes. The companions see something, perhaps the next time they are not there when that instruction was changed. Over 23 years commands would come, and sometimes they would be changed. Like in the beginning there were no five prayers, they just had to pray part of the night., 1. Before the Prophet died the angel Gabriel read the Koran to him and it stated: "today I completed your religion". So before then, it was in the process of being completed. Anyone when he wants to write a book, you don't just start writing and that's the final decision.. you have to write 10 times. I'm not comparing with the sacred books, but you know he would have to write something, correct something.., 1. There are confusions when we look at the statements of the Sabahah. We have to look at the Arabic text, then we can go through a discussion of what they meant.

2. It is a fact that since over 1400 years we have the same script with us, and it was not changed. If there was a problem they were scholars throughout these years from the companions until today, so why are only those objections in those days, not after. There is no evidence that any scholar made objections to these, 1. Whatever misunderstandings they have are maybe because they were not present at that time.

1. Opening Statements

1. Nabeel Qureshi

1. I used to be a Muslim. Decided to not just take what I am told but to investigate and understand the facts., 1. I knew though that when I investigated the life of Jesus in the Koran and in Christian theology, and I compared it to history, that was the turning point.. I was going to compare my historical investigation on these things to the Christian beliefs.

2. All four gospels say that Jesus died on the cross, that he claimed to be God, that he received worship, and that he was entitled to all of the things that God is entitled to.

3. I'm not going to refer to something written 600 years later than Jesus, 600 miles away from Jesus, when I can just turn to something that is written very close to his time: the Gospel of Mark written no more than 30 to 40 years later, the Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of Luke, the Gospel of John, the writings of Peter, the writings of Paul, the writings of the author of Hebrews, why would I go further away than what is clearly stated? And what do they say? They say things like "he is the creator, he is the saviour, that he raised the dead, that he is the judge, that he is the lights, that he is the glory of God, that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer, the bridegroom, the forgiver of sins, he is worshipped by angels, addressed in prayer, he is the creator of Angels, and he is confessed as Lord". This is what we find out about Jesus from the earliest testaments we have about him. I will choose to believe what they say over anything that came later.

4. Examining three core teachings from the Koran with Christianity and comparing them with the historical evidence, surely an investigation will show which one is more likely to be true., 1. Teaching 1: Jesus was not killed or crucified, 1. Koranic text, 1. Koran 4:157: he (Jesus) was not killed, nor was he crucified, but so it appeared to them, 2. Investigation shows that without exception, all sources around the time of Jesus state that Jesus died on the cross., 3. Atheist scholar Marcus Vord, says the creed in 1 Corinthians 15 that says Jesus died on the cross was made within months of Jesus' death., 4. Due to the young age of the sources, this is why scholars today say the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is among the most uncontrovertible facts of history. They say: 'All the sources are in agreement, no-one is saying otherwise, this is one of the most powerful facts of history.', 1. Atheist New Testament scholar Gurt Luderman says: Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable., 2. Well known scholar John Dominic Crossan: there is not the slightest doubt about the fact of Jesus' crucifixion, under Pontius Pilate. - That he was crucified is as sure as anything can ever be., 3. Paula Frederickson: the single most solid fact about Jesus' life is his death. He was executed by the Roman prefect Pilate, on, or around passover., 4. Barth Ehrman: One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on the orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate., 5. To say that Jesus did not die on the cross we would have to take it purely on faith without any reasoning whatsoever., 2. Teaching to: Jesus never claimed he was God, 1. Koranic text, 1. Quran 5:116-117: And behold, God will say, 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary, did you say to men "Worship me, and my mother, as Gods in addition to Allah"?' He will say, 'Glory be to you! Never could I say what I had no right to say! Never did I say to them anything, except what you told me to say - "Worship God, my lord, and your lord"'., 2. Looking at the earliest source, the book of Mark: Jesus clearly claimed to be God,, 3. Jesus used for himself the title 'the son of man', 1. The Son of Man has angels at his disposal, and his own kingdom: Matthew 13:41 - The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and will gather out of his kingdom all stumbling blocks., 2. When the person comes, lightning is going to flash from the sky, or thats how it's going to seem. That's how powerful and majestic this Son of Man is. Matthew 24: For just as lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be., 3. He has his own throne full of glory: Matthew 25: When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne., 4. Luke 18: When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith in the earth?, 5. You need to have strength to stand before the Son of Man. Luke 21: But keep alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape these things that are about to take place, and stremgth to stand before the Son of Man., 6. This title doesn't seem like a regular person., 7. Jesus is clearly alluding to Daniel 7:13. In this part of the Old Testament the prophet Daniel is looking into the night sky, looking at the Father, the 'Ancient of Days', - he is sitting on a throne, being worshipped by angels. Then, as he is looking at God the Father, he says, 'I kept looking in my night visions, and behold, one looking like a Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the 'Ancient of Days', and was presented before him. And to him, the Son of Man, was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. The hebrew word for 'serve' used here 'latroua', the greek word 'paylach', which is a service due only to God. The 130 times it' used in the Bible that service is only ever given to God, with one exception: and here, God cursed the people because they gave it to someone other than God. But here in Daniel chapter 7, it's being given to one who looks like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven., 1. The hebrew word for 'serve' used here 'latroua', the greek word 'paylach', which is a service due only to God. The 130 times it' used in the Bible that service is only ever given to God, with one exception: and here, God cursed the people because they gave it to someone other than God. But here in Daniel chapter 7, it's being given to one who looks like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven., 8. Mark 14:62 - Jesus is responding to the chief priest Caiphus of the Sanhedrin who asks him "Who are you? Are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?" Jesus responds "I AM. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power and coming with the clouds of heaven". He quotes from Daniel 7:13, he says "I am [that Son of Man] who will come with the clouds of heaven., 9. In Mark 14:62 Jesus refers to the divine statement 'Ego aime' - I AM. he uses this term multiple times in very powerful ways. John chapter 8 verse 24: "unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins". Hang on, wait a minute, unless I believe something about you I will die in my sins…? That doesn't make sense, you're just a man right? Clearly, Jesus is intimating something greater. What is he saying? He makes it very clear just a few verses later-John eight verse 58:the Jews have just said to him "you are not yet 50 years old yet you claim to have seen Abraham". Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was, I AM." - Jesus claims to exist eternally--even before Abraham., 4. Over and over and over again, from the first gospel to the last gospel,from things written outside of the Gospels,from things written outside of the Bible, we see people over and over again ascribing to Jesus - deity. The Koran says that Jesus never claimed to be God (he says 'no God, I never told them to worship me'). The problem is:that's the program was written 600 years after Jesus in a land 600 miles away from Jesus. Unless we assume that Muhammad is a prophet, where did he get this information about Jesus?, 3. Teaching three: Jesus performed miracles, 1. Koranic text, 1. Quran 3:49: I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a living bird, by Gods leave.. And I heal those that are born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead to life, by Gods leave., 2. Chapter 3 of the Koran verse 37- 44 are taken from the proto-evangelion of James. This is a false gospel written under the name of James 150 years AD. The Koran chapter 19 verse 23 is taken from the gospel of pseudo-Matthew. This is a book that was written probably five to 6 centuries after the death of Christ. This is taken and included in the Koran. Chapter 19 of the Koran verse 29-31, as well as chapter 3 verse 46, is taken from the Arabic infancy Gospel of Thomas. As soon as Jesus is born he starts talking and proclaiming Allah to the people. Why would Mohammed say this about Jesus? Well because it's in the Arabic infancy Gospel- a book that is a late forgery., 3. Koran 3:49, and chapter 5:110 where Jesus breathed life into clay birds. Why would Mohammed say this? It's a strange thing to make up. - He didn't make it up, he found it in a forgery, in the infancy Gospel of Thomas written 170 years A.D., 4. We find that the Koran tries to gather things that are written in its area , in its timeframeto tell us about Jesus

2. Sulaiman Hashim

1. Prophets are human.They are born, raised, grow old and die. This is nothing new.

2. Jesus was just a prophet like Adam, David, Moses., 1. Miracle 1: Born without a father, 2. Miracle 2: he spoke when he was still a baby, just a few months old. As the Koran mentions he said "I am a servant of God. He gave me a book, made me a prophet"., 3. Miracle 3: he gave life to a clay bird, 4. The powers that Jesus had do not show that he was God., 5. At the end of days he will come back down and he will rule the world., 6. God is superior, and he does not have any habits of the creation., 7. If Jesus was God, why was he born? God is not 'born', he is there in heaven, he is there from eternity. God created the whole universe and the humans., 8. Prophets are not ordinary human beings. They have never done anything wrong, against God's will.That is why he is superior, he is above all mankind. The prophets are chosen by God to be an example to mankind., 9. The miracles that Jesus did was done through God's power, not his own.

3. Humans in this world have an objective., 1 .When things break in this world we try to fix it. It is the same thing with humans., 2. When things break in this world we try to fix it. It is the same thing with humans., 3. The reason humans were created is for God's worship, and to be tested., 4. The eternity where humans are supposed to be is "heaven", where he is going to enjoy his life for ever., 5. The devil does not want him to earn his place in heaven., 6. Whoever is righteous and believes in God and falls upon his message, his instructions,, will be sent to heaven..If he follows the devil he will be in hell. When we have heaven and hell, God wants the human to be in heaven.And the devil wants him to be in hell because the devil is going to be in hell., 7. God in his mercy sent messengers to explain "why you are here" , - what is your objective of life.

4. Jesus was sent to the Jews who were off the path of the Torah. After Moses died thousands of prophets over a long time came to the Jews, but they changed their book, they put their own instructions, according to their own desires. Jesus came to correct that.

5. Some prophets were given books. The first book was given to Abraham. Then Moses (the Torah), then David, then Jesus, then Prophet Muhammad. When a prophet comes he comes to correct the corruption in the environment. This was against the Jews' desire, so they plotted to kill him, but when they came to kill him, two angels lifted him up to heaven. The Jews were misled, - they thought that they had killed him that they had not.

6. If you look at the different versions of the Bible.. - the original version of the Bible that was given to Jesus was in Hebrew. Now it has been translated, and when you translate one language to another,, sometimes people put their own thoughts in, and every translator has his own opinion, that's how the Bible started getting mixed up.

7. If we look on the other hand The Koran, it is the truth because 1400 years ago, the Koran was revealed in the Arabic language, and today it is the same language in the same format. No book in the whole universe, no one in the whole world can claim that even one letter was slightly changed. I learned, memorised the whole Koran, and this chain has gone on - I learned from my teacher, my teacher learned from, and so on for 1400 years.

8. Mohammed did not come to disgrace Jesus, he said that you must believe in him.

9. When Jesus came he was given the Bible (Injeel). What's interesting is that if you look in the Bible you won't find the word "Bible" anywhere. On the other hand if you look at the Koran, - thousands of times. So the Bible was revealed to correct the Jewish corruption.

2. First Response

1. Nabeel Qureshi

1. Sulaiman says that ever prophet comes with a single (the same) message., 1. To see what a prophets message is, we should listen to his words, should we not?, 1. Matthew 10:28 - Jesus says 'This is my blood, shed for the remission of the sins of many'., 1. Islam does not agree with this but that is what the book of Matthew tells us that Jesus said, 2. If we go to the earliest gospel, Mark 10:45 - says the same thing, that Jesus shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins., 3. To say that everyone had the same message would mean we had to presuppose that what Islam is teaching is true.

2. Who is giving the powers to do the miracles?, 1 .Jesus said that he is doing the miracles himself, 1. Matthew 9:28 - The blind man came up to him, and Jesus said " do you believe that I am able to do this?" They say yes Lord. Then Jesus says "it shall be done to you according to your faith"., Where was their faith?Was their faith in the father (God)? Did he say "do you believe that God is able to do this?" - no, he says "do you believe that I am able to do this?", 2. Matthew chapter 8: a leper comes to Jesus saying " Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean. Jesus stretches out his hands saying "I am willing. Be cleansed", 3. Luke 7:14 - Jesus came up and touch the Coffin and says "young man, I say to you 'arise'", 4. This is something that was very surprising and had never been seen before, 1. Matthew 9:33 - the Jews said "nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel", 1. The Jews have seen miracles before - Moses parting the red Sea, people raised from the dead, but they are saying that nothing like this has ever been seen before in Israel - Jesus is doing these miracles in his own name

3. The Mufti talks about what the Koran says about Jesus, 1. Speaking in the cradle at birth [], 1. Let's look at the Arabic infancy Gospel, 1. "We have found it recorded in the book of Josephus the chief priest who was in the time of Christ and men called him Caiaphus, this man said that Jesus spake whilst he was in the cradle, and he said to his mother "verily,I am Jesus the son of God, the Word which thou hast borne according as the angel Gabriel has given thee good news", 2. What do we find in the Koran 19:29, 1. People say "how shall we talk with him who is but an infant in the cradle?" whereupon the child spoke out "I am a servant of Allah, he has given me the book and has appointed me a Prophet, and he has made me blessed wherever I made be., 1. This is a quotation from the false gospel that was made hundreds of years after Jesus, 2. Giving life to clay birds [], Koran 3:49 - I will make a bird for you out of clay, then breathe life into it with God's permission, and it will become a real bird, Looking at the infancy Gospel of Thomas:, Jesus took soft clay, and modelled 12 sparrows from it. He clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows "be gone!", and the sparrows flew off, chirping., 3. Muhammed quotes from apocryphal Gospels to tell us about Jesus

4 .The mufti asks "why was God born?" [], 1. I talked about this in my introduction. This is about our salvation, and it's not through anything we can do. It is by God himself paying our punishment. But what is a punishment? - According to the book of Romans, the wages of sin is death… Sin leads to death. We find this from the beginning of the Bible. In Genesis we see that when sin is committed a lamb has to die. From this point, same goes hand-in-hand with sacrifice and the death of animals, and this is symbolic of the death that we must die for the sins that we have committed against God., 1. One pure, unblemished, unadulterated lamb would come and pay for our sins, and he was recognised (by John the Baptist). "There is the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world". - John chapter 1. So that's why God is born into this world., 2. Jesus was not created at this point in time (his birth), that's not the case. No one is saying that., 3. John chapter 1: It says "in the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.". "Through him all things that were created came into being." So there was something with God in the beginning, and he was the word… He was with God, and he was God… And then it says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. No one is saying that God was created when Jesus was born, what we're saying is that he was incarnated at that point in time.

5. The mufti says that Jesus was raised into heaven by two angels at some point, 1. If Allah decided to save Jesus from the cross by raising him up, and he didn't tell anyone… No one else knew, everyone else thought that he was killed on the cross, and that they had seen him risen from the dead, then is not Allah single-handedly responsible for making people think that Jesus rose from the dead? If Allah didn't tell anyone what he had done then he is single-handedly responsible for the creation of Christianity - the one religion that causes more people to commit 'shirk' than any other religion in the world. Can we say that Allah is condemning billions of people to hell just so that he could save his Prophet Jesus? That's not just., 1. But let's say that it's not Allah's fault. Instead, let's say that it's Jesus's fault. Allah picks Jesus, says "you're going to be a good Messiah, you're going to reveal a wonderful message that everyone's going to listen to, but Jesus doesn't do a good job. He's incompetent. He doesn't let everyone know "hey, I'm just a Prophet, I'm not God. I'm not going to die on this cross, I'm not going to rise from the dead".. Then we end up with a similar case. If the Muslim version is true you are left with one of two things: either you have a God who picked the wrong Messiah, or you have a Messiah who was totally incompetent.. Christianity should not have started by Allah's hand

6. There are different versions of the Bible [1.2.6], 1. I think I have addressed this already. Islam does not actually mention that the Bible is corrupted. This is something that has come later., 1. In our possession today we have whole Bibles from early on in Christian times: Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, these are codices that have books from the Bible from very early on before the Council of Nicaea, from the early fourth century (300 A.D. or so), 1. We can go further back: we have Chester Beadie papyri - fragments of the Gospel of Matthew which are no later than 200 years after Jesus death, 2. We can go even further back: we have the Rylands papyrus, these are fragments of the Gospel of John written less than 100 years after Jesus's death, 3. To say that we have had translation after translation after translation, and that's what we are basing our Bible on - that's not understanding the text of the Bible. Our Bible is constructed from early early manuscripts that we have in our possession., 1. The Koran is a different story. According to Muslim sources, after the Battle of Yamama many Muslims had lost their lives, Muslims who had known the Koran very well. People were worried that parts of the Koran would be lost, so they ask Abu Bakr - "collect the Koran before parts are lost". Abu Bakr commissions Zayed Bin Thabit to collect the Koran, as much of it as could be collected. Zayed immediately says that "this is going to be one of the most difficult tasks imaginable. I could move a mountain one grain at a time far easier than I could collect the Koran". Once the book is collected it is put away into Abu Bakrs possession. When he dies it goes to Hufsa, the wife of Muhammad. Later, Muslims are arguing again about the Koran, and they are saying to the Khalifa Uthman "please fix this problem, before we have arguments about the Koran which will never be resolved. Then Uthman, using Abu Bakr's Koran, creates one version, and then he burns everything else. He destroys all of the evidence., Do we have anyway today to say that the Koran in our possession is the same Koran that came to Muhammad? No, we can't say that. - Because all of them were burnt! We can't collect it, we can't compare it. So what can we look at? We can look at the statements of the early Muslims. Did they say that Zayeds Koran was a perfect Koran? Absolutely not. They said the opposite. Mohammed picked four teachers of the Koran. He said the first teacher is Abdullah Ibn Massoud. Ibn Massoud said of Zayed's Koran "this Koran that you are reading is a deception - do not copy it. Do not read it"., One of Muhammad's other teachers Ubayed Ibn Ka'b, - the fourth teacher that he mentions (according to Sahih Bukhari) says that there should be 116 chapters of the Koran. He includes in his Koran chapters that Zayed does not have in his. So Ibn Massoud, the number one teacher of the Koran has 111 chapters. Ubayed Ibn Ka'b has 116 chapters, Aisha says that large sections of the Koran were lost., Ibn Yubas says that large section of the Koran were lost, 2. [referring to his previous points regarding the Koran], if we talk about where to go to to learn about Jesus, and we turn to the Koran, we have lots and lots of problems. Not only is it 600 miles away, and 600 years after Jesus, you have a problem of collection, whereas the Bible contains the earliest stories about Jesus's life, where you can see what he actually did and said about himself.

2. Sulaiman Hashim

1. On Nabeels points regarding the Koran, 1. The statement that Dr Qureshi made I have not read in any book. I don't know where he got that from. What he said about the Koran is not in any book. It's not in Bukhari. Not in Abu Dawud, - I can challenge that. It is not., 2. When the Prophet revealed the Koran, it did not come down at one time. It came down over 23 years, verse by verse, chapter by chapter. The Prophet used to memorise it, then teach it to his ten companions who used to write down the Koran on papers, bones, leaves, whatever they had. So firstly the Koran was written (when it was revealed). Second, it was memorised. The Muslims don't depend on writing, the main source is the memorisation., 3. As Dr Qureshi mentioned, after the battle of Umrah, many Hafiz were killed, so they collected the Koran in a book state. After that it went to the first Khalifa, then the second, then the third., 4. The Scripture of the Koran is protected by God. There is no doubt that if there is a book claimed to be from God, over time people have issues, they bring first the old Testament, then the new Testament, there are, you know, confusions about the Bible. There are so many different versions that a person gets confused. It is a fact, we have to accept it., 1. On the other side with the Koran, even if you claim it was collected by one person, and other versions were burnt, the Koran is not the book, it is what's in the hearts of the people. The Prophet taught his companions the Koran not through reading and writing. There was no reading and writing, our Prophet did not know how to read or write. Just like Jesus had his own miracles, that is the miracle of our Prophet - he could not read or write so no one can claim he brought it from himself., 1. Whilst documenting the peace treaty between the peoples of Mecca and Medina, because the Prophet was illiterate he had someone write the treaty down, and he wrote down 'Mohammed, messenger of God'. The people of Mecca said that they don't believe he is a messenger of God - erase that. So he said 'fine'. His companion said 'I'm not going to erase that', so Muhammed asked where it was written, and erased it himself., 1. If Muhammed could neither read nor write, how did the Koran survive 1400 years? Even if we do not have the book, it is in our heart., 5. The Koran was revealed in the Arabic language. It has been translated into many other languages. And people memorise it in the Arabic language. You don't even need to know Arabic to memorise it, that's one speciality of the Koran. You just learn the alphabet and memorise it. It's easy, very easy., 6. Was the Koran is easy to memorise, if you see the other side- the Bible, originally, in some language, it was translated and translated… Well, it's a long story, and we shouldn't go there, because then this turns into an argument, and it's not good to argue. The basic thing is believing in God and his messengers., 7. Mohammed was a true messenger of God. As I mentioned, he did not know how to write or read, so whatever knowledge he got, from the old Testament, whatever, so how did it come to be 114 chapters of the Koran, 8. The Koran is divided into four parts. First, is faith. Explaining the powers of God, and about judgement and angels. Secondly about previous nations. It does not go into detail, just very basic things. Thirdly, it gives examples eg: charity. Fourthly, (the most minor part) the law, like how to live your life, stay away from false statements etc., 9. The Koran has not come to terminate all other religions. There is a chain, - different profits came to the nations, and the seal of the prophets stopped at Muhammad. I don't think there's a big deal over this. Prophet Adam, to the Prophet Muhammad. - They are all prophets that came to convey the same message., 1. The prophets come to solve the problem of what comes between people and their Lord.

2. Response to Dr Qureshi's comments on Jesus and his powers [2.1.2], 1. Suppose we agree that Jesus said "I give life". That does not deny that God gave him those powers. God gave him those powers to use it. If I am given money, I can use that money to buy anything. It is my money. But that doesn't mean I made that money., 2. If we do not believe that Jesus was a regular human then these are all the sorts of confusions that we create., 3. Different prophets have different powers. Putting this statement, that he was not God, he was just a Prophet is not dishonouring him. But I think it is an honour.

3. Further response on the subject of God being born [2.1.4], 1. We believe, and we admit that Jesus was born, right? A God is not born. If he is born, he has to have some similarity to a regular human. The difference is that he has been chosen by God, and he is there to lead a nation, and teach them the true path.